Women, the Bible and the Equality/Inferiority Question

So, Pastor Joshua left me a nice long biblical comment on my masturbation post last night and I feel that it does not warrant a comment for a rebuttal, but a full post. Here’s the section of the comment that I’m dealing with:

“And a man will choose…any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman…Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die” Ecclesiastics, 25:18, 19 & 33.
(Genesis 2:7) God formed only a man: “…the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Realizing that he needed a helper (Genesis 2:18), God marched all of the animals past Adam (Genesis 2:19-20) looking for a suitable animal. Finding none suitable, God created Eve out of one of Adam’s ribs. The term “helper” has historically been interpreted as implying an inferior role for Eve, although some modern interpreters believe that the word can mean a companion of equal status. “…the Hebrew word translated “helper” is used twenty-one times in the Old Testament: twenty of these cases refer to help from a superior.” (3) In Genesis 2:27, Adam later asserts his authority over Eve by naming her: “…she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Reading Pastor Joshua’s Scripture

First, Pastor Joshua’s reference to Ecclesiastes Chapter 25? I don’t know what Bible he’s reading, but all of the ones I checked have only 12 books. Interestingly enough, though, Pastor Joshua’s entire quote for this verse can be found on the Religious Tolerance website exactly as he posted them. I’m serious. Look at this:

Joshua: “And a man will choose…any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman…Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die” Ecclesiastics, 25:18, 19 & 33.

Religious Tolerance: “And a man will choose…any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman…Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die” Ecclesiasticus, 25:18, 19 & 33.

Now, I’m sorry, but I can’t help wondering what takes place in the missing words. I know when I was in college, I was taught that when you omit words from a quote, you place an ellipses in place of the words […]. This lets the audience know that words are missing. So, I’m curious as to what was cut out. I did a little digging and guess what I found in the Roman Catholic Bible? The exact passages that he’s speaking of! Wow.

So, I guess this means that I’m dealing with new argument material.

And the Roman Catholic Bible I’m using does not say that God formed man of the dust of the earth. Instead, it says:

2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Why, then, does Pastor Joshua say dust? Is he using a different bible? Mine is online here (sorry, I like being able to point directly to my sources. It’s something else I learned in school.

Now, I will give Pastor Joshua credit for quoting the appropriate texts about the creation of Eve. But I don’t think that he went far enough. Let’s look:

2:18 And the Lord God said: It is not good for man to be alone: let us make him a help like unto himself.

2:19 And the Lord God having formed out of the ground all the beasts of the earth, and all the fowls of the air, brought them to Adam to see what he would call them: for whatsoever Adam called any living creature the same is its name.

2:20 And Adam called all the beasts by their names, and all the fowls of the air, and all the cattle of the field: but for Adam there was not found a helper like himself.

2:21 Then the Lord God cast a deep sleep upon Adam: and when he was fast asleep, he took one of his ribs, and filled up flesh for it.

2:22 And the Lord God built the rib which he took from Adam into a woman: and brought her to Adam.

2:23 And Adam said: This now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man.

2:24 Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh.

So now Adam is “cleaving” to his wife. Cleave can mean two different things:

1. to separate from
2. to become emotionally attached; to cling to

I’m going out on a limb and saying that this anonymous person who wrote the Bible meant the second. So Adam is now clinging emotionally to his wife. Hmmm…that’s interesting. So we can see that Adam is intended to be emotionally dependent upon his wife. Emotionally dependent. Cooking, cleaning and raising children are not emotions.

So Pastor Joshua has had his say. Now it’s my turn.

But let’s move on for now. There is another issue with Genesis that needs to be addressed.

It bugs me when a person skips the Introduction to a book because they feel it is irrelevant. I am, however, even more annoyed when people skip the first chapter of the book of Genesis because they like what the second book says better. In the second book, where woman is formed from man, everybody likes to argue that this makes woman subordinate. What about the creation account in the first book of Genesis?

1:27 And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.

Here, we have a completely different creation story. In this one, man and woman are created together. I like this one better. And I still don’t understand how there are two completely different creation stories. It’s bad enough when you contradict your own writing, but when you do this contradiction within mere pages. If you can’t determine from the beginning of the book which is the real story of creation, how do you know what to read in the rest of the book? If you are going to accept the bible, you have to accept that there are two completely different creation stories. So, let’s move on for now.

God and Man, Superiority and Inferiority

First, he states that the word “helper” refers to an inferior. Let’s look a little closer at that one:

I Sam 7:12

And Samuel took a stone, and laid it between Masphath and Sen: and he called the place, the Stone of help. And he said: Thus far the Lord hath helped us.

Notice that in this passage, the Lord is the helper. So, to read this as literally as Pastor Joshua does the first time, The Lord is inferior to man. (Wow, I wrote that like two minutes ago and have not been struck down yet!)

Women, Men and Equality (From the book Pastor Joshua cites)

I continue to question where Pastor Joshua gets his idea that women are inferior to men. I’ll deal with cooking and staying home later in the post. I think that he’s looking at scripture that focuses specifically on women in submissive roles. Let’s look at few other things the bible says. Words that present women in a more equal light:

1 Corinthians

7:3 Let the husband render the debt to his wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband.

7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband. And in like manner the husband also hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

I’m seeing a bit of equality in this passage. How about you?

Deutoronomy

21:18 If a man have a stubborn and unruly son, who will not hear the commandments of his father or mother, and being corrected, slighteth obedience:

21:19 They shall take him and bring him to the ancients of his city, and to the gate of judgment,

21:20 And shall say to them: This our son is rebellious and stubborn, he slighteth hearing our admonitions, he giveth himself to revelling, and to debauchery and banquetings:

21:21 The people of the city shall stone him: and he shall die, that you may take away the evil out of the midst of you, and all Israel hearing it may be afraid.

So the son can be stoned for not listening to the commandments of either parent? Once again, I’m seeing some equality here.

27:16 Cursed be he that honoureth not his father and mother: and all the people shall say: Amen.

Do I need to say it again? I didn’t think so.

Proverbs

1:8 My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother

I would say here that part of the job of the father is raising the children.

6:20 My son, beep the commandments of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother.

And the passage is repeated!

Ephesians

6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is just.

6:2 Honour thy father and thy mother, which is the first commandment with a promise:

6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest be long lived upon earth.

6:4 And you, fathers, provoke not your children to anger; but bring them up in the discipline and correction of the Lord.

One more passage where the children must obey their parents that also says the father is responsible for discipline.

Now, I could go on all day pulling specific passages out of the bible that support my argument (I have a Master’s Degree in literature…I’m trained to do just that and to do it without twisting around the words, either), but instead, I want to point out a few general things about the bible as it applies to today’s society.

Sure, the bible states in several places that women are the weaker sex. And there are passages that deal with women as inferior to her husband. I am not denying that.

An Out of Date Text

There are, however, passages talking about how to handle slaves, but we don’t have slaves anymore. Most books are revised when a change of such magnitude occurs in the society. Not the bible, though. Do we just ignore those passages? Why has the bible been written and then abandoned for so many years? Honestly, I think that if this was the book to dictate your life, somebody would be doing some up to the minute revisions every few centuries. We do not let our country’s laws sit dormant and “ignored” when they become outdated. Instead, we ammend them. Yet nobody has been given the divine inspiration to amend the bible since the writing of the New Testament? Hmmm….that’s interesting

Of course women don’t have jobs in the bible. The book is thousands of years old and has not been revised since the national currency moved from bartering to money. We have to remember that they barter and trade in the bible. There wasn’t need for money. Also, the men had slaves to help them in the field. If we are to keep the women home with the babies, should we reinstitute slavery to keep the women free from having to work? Well, that’s not fair. We decided that in the last century.

I’m also curious why Pastor Joshua, the pastor of Coventry First Baptist Church in the UK and some Baptist Church in Kansas (I would post links to the church websites, but there is no listing (i.e. map or anything) for a such church in the UK and the good Pastor is not a registered pastor through the SBC) is using a Roman Catholic Bible. But, since he chooses, I will continue (like any good Catholic School graduate would) to question him based upon the Catholic religion.

Regarding Saints

In Catholicism, there is a collection of Saints, as we all know. One of these saints, a St. Margaret of Clitherow was a businesswoman during the reign of Elizabeth. Now, St. Margaret was canonized by Pope John Paul II in the 1970s. She is the patron saint of businesswomen. Why, if the church stands firmly behind women in the home (as “dictated” in Pastor Joshua’s world, by the bible) would the church canonize a saint of businesswomen? Business “people” have their own saint, but women get their own. Sure, this is a bit segregationist at first, but I think women needed their own saint because there are so many businesswomen in the world.

What about the notable Catherine of Alexandria? She was educated in science and oratory and is the patron saint of female students? Again, not all students, but female students.

Final Thoughts

Perhaps, if Pastor Joshua chooses to address my questions, he will also address this one:

Why do you choose to lead your readers to disobey the words of Peter?

Ye husbands, likewise dwelling with them according to knowledge, giving honour to the female as to the weaker vessel, and as to the co-heirs of the grace of life: that your prayers be not hindered.

Readers should be honoring their wives, not “only allow her to wear clothes of the whore in your bed.” Remember, respect the wife. She is your co-heir

Oh, and look… woman is the co-heir (and therefore the equal heir) of the grace.

And, Pastor Joshua, when you find that passage in the bible that says (without a twist to the wording) “women are forever to stay home, cook , clean, and please their husbands, please let me know. And make sure to tell me which bible you find it in.

I’m done now. If Pastor Joshua wants to quibble over scripture, let him. But here’s what I have to say in regards to the Bible and women. Pastor Joshua, read your Bible. Stop reading snippets of scripture off the Internet and thinking you know all about the Bible. Open your mind and read the book.

If Pastor Joshua wants to post a comment, I will respond directly with a post. I will not, however, post comments on his blog. I know this may sound fair, but when your Legal Statement says this, I refuse to post:

By participating in this site, you are agreeing to allow The American Way and Coventry First Baptist© full access to your words and ideas and free reign to do with them as we see fit. You are granting The American Way and Coventry First Baptist© worldwide permission to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform and display your submission (in whole or part) and/or to incorporate it in other works in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed. (emphasis mine)

In short, I refuse to let Pastor Joshua modify my words. In addition, I prefer an argument, not a pissing contest. I’ve seen that he has refused to answer so many of his comments for grounds that don’t warrant a refusal. Therefore, as long as he wants to comment, I will continue to respond.

Peace and Love